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13 comments

1
Randall Gross  Dec 3, 2023 • 6:14:50am

This seems to be akin to rationalizing shooting the robbers through their hostages, or shooting POW’s because they were combatants.

You can’t indiscriminately kill civilians and massively destroy their infrastructure no matter how many fine “just war” hairs you split, because just war theory and ethics is a massive study and for any situation you can find many rationalizations around it. The world is watching, and they are not liking what they see. Rationalize that.

2
Decatur Deb  Dec 3, 2023 • 6:42:00am

When you apply ethics to war you necessarily wind up with shitty ethics and shitty combat results. “War crime” is a redundancy.

3
Dizzy  Dec 3, 2023 • 8:09:51am

re: #1 Randall Gross

This seems to be akin to rationalizing shooting the robbers through their hostages, or shooting POW’s because they were combatants.

You can’t indiscriminately kill civilians and massively destroy their infrastructure no matter how many fine “just war” hairs you split, because just war theory and ethics is a massive study and for any situation you can find many rationalizations around it. The world is watching, and they are not liking what they see. Rationalize that.

I disagree. There is no evidence of indiscriminate killing of civilians by the Israeli forces; please show me where Palestinian civilians were specifically targeted. There are rules of war and Israeli defence forces follow them more than almost any other military. On the contrary, the actions of Hamas were indiscriminate and brutal, specifically abducting civilians as hostages. Your generalizations of the war are wrong and don’t fit the specifics.

Indeed the world is watching, I hear this all the time in the Hamas-supported marches in the West. The difference this time is that Israel will ensure that Hamas is destroyed whether the ‘world’ approves or not. If the world supports Hamas, then the world is wrong.

Randall, let me ask you a question. What if your brethren were hunted, brutalized, raped, and unspeakable acts forced on them, with the political message that they are coming for you next? The stated and public aim is to wipe you off the earth. What would you do?

4
Randall Gross  Dec 6, 2023 • 7:47:43am

I would not indiscriminately destroy civilians and civilian infrastructure because of my rage. Split the hairs you want, in your soul you fucking know better. We are all watching.
For the record, few if any in the world really “support Hamas,” and especially not here — so quit with the fucking insinuations.

5
Dizzy  Dec 7, 2023 • 4:46:19am

Randall, I continue to disagree with your assertion that civilians are being destroyed indiscriminately. When all ‘pro-Palestinian’ demonstrations contain the phrase “from river to sea”, the Hamas doctrine, it can be assumed that there is widespread support for the terrorist group.

I’m sorry that you feel I’ve attacked you. I haven’t. I disagree with your take on the issue but I respect it. However, you don’t know me, you don’t know my soul, but I think that we have more values in common than you suspect.

6
Randall Gross  Dec 7, 2023 • 5:21:39am

re: #5 Dizzy

Randall, I continue to disagree with your assertion that civilians are being destroyed indiscriminately. When all ‘pro-Palestinian’ demonstrations contain the phrase “from river to sea”, the Hamas doctrine, it can be assumed that there is widespread support for the terrorist group.

I’m sorry that you feel I’ve attacked you. I haven’t. I disagree with your take on the issue but I respect it. However, you don’t know me, you don’t know my soul, but I think that we have more values in common than you suspect.

You can continue to assert that bombing children and families in apartment buildings because HAMAS tunnels might be in use underneath them is somehow just, but I can’t agree. The binary think that people who disagree with you somehow “support hamas” (you used the phrase, not I) that some use in defense of Israel is highly counter productive.
We did evil in America with our wars and drone strikes that killed massive amounts of civilians, I’m still atoning for supporting that shit — don’t be like I was.
One other thing: the fact that you have to “wuddabout” in every argument shows clearly how weak your assertions are.

7
Dizzy  Dec 7, 2023 • 10:46:28am

re: #6 Randall Gross

You can continue to assert that bombing children and families in apartment buildings because HAMAS tunnels might be in use underneath them is somehow just, but I can’t agree. The binary think that people who disagree with you somehow “support hamas” (you used the phrase, not I) that some use in defense of Israel is highly counter productive.

I’ve asserted nothing of the kind. As I said, you don’t know me, but you seem to be attributing some things to me that I’ve never said. Nor have I said that you support Hamas. Pointing out that all demonstrations that are pro-Palestinian at some point echo Hamas talking points weakens their position.

We did evil in America with our wars and drone strikes that killed massive amounts of civilians, I’m still atoning for supporting that shit — don’t be like I was.
One other thing: the fact that you have to “wuddabout” in every argument shows clearly how weak your assertions are.

I agree, I was with you at the time, and in that case, I am still with you. I think you’ve lost the point here accusing me of whataboutism when again I’ve done nothing like that. You are coming across as disingenuous and arguing in bad faith.

8
Randall Gross  Dec 7, 2023 • 11:01:11am

When Israel drops bombs on children or the U.S. drops bombs on children in civilian infrastructure it’s pretty simply in the same spectrum as when HAMAS targets innocents that they could avoid, the degree is merely different and thus splitting hairs over what Netanyahu and IDF are doing in Gaza.

Is Israel taking all steps they could to avoid harming civilians?

Obviously not if they drop JDAMS on Rafah, which is exactly where they told the civilians to evacuate to.

9
Randall Gross  Dec 7, 2023 • 11:02:52am

Oh and everyone needs merely to read your comments upthread to see you dodging the thrust of the arguments about just war by wuddabouting HAMAS master of the obvious evil atrocities.

10
Dizzy  Dec 7, 2023 • 11:22:43am

Randall, I find your equivocation of Israel’s response to coordinated murder and rape to actual murder and rape pretty disturbing. Your continued assertions that there is indiscriminate killing of women and children continue to be false no matter how many times you repeat them. There is little point in discussing this with you if you continue to deflect away from the points that you are trying to make.

11
Randall Gross  Dec 7, 2023 • 12:39:36pm

30-40 percent of civilian buildings in Gaza have been destroyed as verified by satellite imagery, please explain to me how this destruction differs from that done by Putin and Assad in Aleppo, or by Putin in the Ukraine, or by Serbian nationalists in Srebrenica, or etc etc.

The U.N. is likely forcing us to pull our Veto on the security council out again today, and several international agencies have condemned what is happening. You can continue with your copypasta “just war” agitprop, but I clearly see Netanyahu & IDF stepping beyond humane bounds here. I won’t continue to support what Netanyahu is doing, indeed I can not.

12
Randall Gross  Dec 9, 2023 • 4:59:45am
13
Randall Gross  Dec 9, 2023 • 5:00:30am

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